[Envy07]

I dont think its a matter of Legalities, more like Ethics.

I think it'd be easier to give him a bad reputation. I doubt there'll be a Legislation that states moves can be copyrighted. (unless they are published by the creator himself such as Chad nelson and the Clipshift)

Any idea, Design or technique can be patented.

[RichmanMatthew]

Originally Posted by monark Dan and Dave are out to make money with their ideas too.

No, they definitely aren't. They just want to make a living doing what they love. There's a HUGE difference.


As for my view on the topic, read below.

Lawrence sent me a message telling me that I'd better take our private conversation off of a public forum and if I didn't he would pursue legal action.

[cbols23]

Imo, coming here, is not going to help you at all.

Also, on the subject of Credit, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P15q9kWxUqg

[EddieMagic]

I just went to the bicycleman website last night... and boy it was similar to Dan and Dave's style.

By the way, just because you know some sleights and tricks from other sources does not mean you can sell it as your own. That's just being disrespectful. Plus your stuff is friggin overpriced as hell.

[monark]

Originally Posted by RichmanMatthew No, they definitely aren't. They just want to make a living doing what they love. There's a HUGE difference.

I will politely disagree with that. True, they are sharing their ideas and helping many people learn and improve their magic skills, but making a living off of their ideas is in fact making money. I meant it in no way as a derogatory statement. I have no problems with them "making money" or "making a living" doing what they are doing. I'm glad that they are successful at what they do. But, in my opinion, they are doing it to make money. The fact that they love what they do and can support themselves by doing it just an added perk.

Again, that's just my 2 cents though...

[Guitarkid2023]

This is a copy of a PM I sent to him.


I'm not sending this to argue with you. You have clearly been outdone by the intelligence of this magic community. Sure you can bypass the legal system and get away with what you're doing, but have you no morals whatsoever?

Regardless about how you interpret the legal system, what you are doing is just plain wrong. If you don't really think this way, and you're just trying to make some money by finding loopholes in the legal system, then you're just a douche. There's nothing we can do about that. You will not receive any business from the best of the best when it comes to magic and flourishing. That limits you to the beginners of the magic community. You're also unlikely to get business from them due to the lack of knowledge that you exist. Sites like Ellusionist, Theory 11 and Dan and Dave will continue to educate the magic community. You are also unlikely to get your name out there due to the lack of respect the entire magic community has towards you. So good luck with that.

However, if you actually do think about your magic the way you say you do, then you might want to go jump off a bridge. Any person who views life the way you do should not even be alive. It's despicable.
I'm not sending this to argue with you. You have clearly been outdone by the intelligence of this magic community. Sure you can bypass the legal system and get away with what you're doing, but have you no morals whatsoever?

Regardless about how you interpret the legal system, what you are doing is just plain wrong. If you don't really think this way, and you're just trying to make some money by finding loopholes in the legal system, then you're just a douche. There's nothing we can do about that. You will not receive any business from the best of the best when it comes to magic and flourishing. That limits you to the beginners of the magic community. You're also unlikely to get business from them due to the lack of knowledge that you exist. Sites like Ellusionist, Theory 11 and Dan and Dave will continue to educate the magic community. You are also unlikely to get your name out there due to the lack of respect the entire magic community has towards you. So good luck with that.

However, if you actually do think about your magic the way you say you do, then you might want to go jump off a bridge. Any person who views life the way you do should not even be alive. It's despicable.

Again don't bother to respond, because it will simply be ignored. I only sent this to you so that you actually read it instead of just ignoring the thread you created.

You have officially made yourself the most hated person in the magic community. With that I wish you good luck, and go to hell.


You have officially made yourself the most hated person in the magic community. With that I wish you good luck, and go to hell.

-Kevin

[Guitarkid2023]

he definitely needs to listen to this. Lee Asher is someone who you absolutely cannot disagree with in terms of experience and knowledge

[Guitarkid2023]

Originally Posted by RichmanMatthew And he said... "You should consider the credibility of your sources. Dan and Dave are not credible, they run a business praying on peoples naiveness. I'm 28 and bought my first copy of the book By forces Unseen in 1993 when it was first published. But, I would put money that you have only known about it for a few years and once it hit the mainstream. The move known as the clip shift popularized by Dan and Dave has been around for YEARS! And they don't want to loose there credibility with the familiar magicians. That is why they chose to put Chads name on it instead of there own. Anyway, For example this is the way I feel. I was teaching the "Clip Shift" as the "One Hand Card Control" for many years, but when dan and dave made it popular I changed the name for continuity. Unless you know for a 100% fact that credit is due, don't be childish. I really think you are a talented kid with more to offer in the future then most inspiring magicians. I want to put your profile up so that people that follow me could have a higher level of inspiration by seeing your hard work progress in the years to come. Laurence Miller" If you actually took the time to read this, you know how fed up with this guy I am. Don't get me wrong though, he still has amazing skill with cards.

It's funny how he took this as an attack when he clearly was not being judged. He almost expected it.

I think that he thinks that since we're "young and don't have nearly enough experience" that he can pull one over on us.

As for his skill, I don't think that it really matters when you consider the mentality of this ass hole.

sorry for the triple post, I'm just kinda pissed

-Kevin

[StephenG]

This whole thing is really upsetting. I didn't know such douchebags existed. Hmm.

But anyway, I found his "membership details" tab on the site to be extremely hypocritical.

On there he says that he "wanted to ensure the protection of the ideas and hard work of myself, as well as other members" and that he gives opportunities to have your own tricks credited and published. Credited/published by who? I really can't fathom how anyone would go to him to have personal material published...hell, it'd probably get stolen and taught on the site for 10 dollars with all of the profit directed towards himself.

To me, this guy is more hated than magicdude09 ever was.

[verticaltrig]

Originally Posted by RichmanMatthew And he said... "The move known as the clip shift popularized by Dan and Dave has been around for YEARS! And they don't want to loose there credibility with the familiar magicians. That is why they chose to put Chads name on it instead of there own. Laurence Miller"

What a load of bull. They give it to Chad so they don't loose credibility with familiar magicians? Then why would familiar, very well learned guys like England and Kenner give Chad the credit for creating such an "ingenious and completely original" move that is "worth it's weight in gold"?

At first I was willing to give this guy a chance to come clean but after reading all of this crap....

Such a pity such skill is wasted on a scumbag.

Thanks for the info Matt, and thanks to Zach for drawing him out!